Sebastian Sons: The Power of Healthy Dialogues in Clearing Up Misconceptions

Before reaching out to Sebastian Sons, I read extensively about his work. What stood out most to me was his sensitivity to understanding the nuances of what he knows and doesn’t know about Saudi Arabia, his ability to accurately translate the differences in mentality, and his skill in placing issues appropriately. After speaking with him, I understood that his main driving force is his belief that only by connecting people can we truly understand each other.

Q: After the Qatar 2022 World Cup, many Arabs felt offended and insulted, questioning the value of coming together and cooperating if the outcome was so disappointing. What are your thoughts on this?

A: Indeed, the World Cup has caused a number of controversial debates that spurred animosities and misunderstandings between parts of the Arab world and parts of the ‘West’. From my perspective, dialogue has become more difficult but is more needed than ever before. This is what we aim to promote at CARPO with our projects and dialogue formats.

In general, it is very difficult to gauge how dialogues will work out because there are no fixed parameters. Our projects and others rely on creating environments in which people feel comfortable talking to each other. Typically, people lack the space to discuss various matters constructively. Achieving this in a world where such spaces are becoming increasingly rare is an accomplishment.

Political decision-makers also have their own considerations, always weighing the impact on political decisions. Some projects do foster exchange and understanding, allowing political designers and decision-makers to communicate. However, managing expectations is crucial.

These projects aim to address morals and security politics. If the environment isn't conducive, dialogue may not be feasible. It’s important to demonstrate that dialogue is an option for concrete conflict mitigation and not just confrontation. In such context, facilitators should tolerate all kinds of people, including those with initial prejudices, and aim to help them in their decision-making process.

Measuring the impact is challenging, but in today’s polarized times, it’s essential. I’ve been doing this for more than 10 years and am inspired by the many intelligent minds in the region, as well as the willingness for exchange in areas like art, culture, politics, and sports.

Q: Do you feel that people in Saudi Arabia have changed after Vision 2030?

A: I believe there are many intelligent and critical minds in Saudi Arabia, which were present even before 2016. They are now able to speak up and express their informed opinions and expectations. It was previously very difficult for these individuals, ls, men and women, to be heard due to the political and social constraints in place.

This has changed since 2016, which I see as a liberating development. This openness hasn't changed the people; they have always been like this. Many things were said privately before. There has been much creativity and resilience among Saudis despite the circumstances they lived in. The current generation is encouraged to move forward. The visible transformation of institutions reflects this, though for people, it’s more of a continuous development rather than a complete transformation.

Young people are taking up issues that their parents, who had fewer opportunities, previously faced. This gives the impression of something new, but the real difference is that there are now more public spaces to interact with Saudis than there were ten years ago. Personally, it is easier to connect with people via WhatsApp now; it was incredibly difficult back in 2008 when I came to the kingdom the first time due to the lack of opportunities and uncertainty about whom to contact.

Q: From what you’ve said, it seems like you mainly talk to younger people. Am I correct?

A: I wouldn’t say I only talk to the young, but I am particularly interested in understanding the issues and thoughts of this generation, which I call the ‘Generation MBS’, especially in relation to their parents, who didn’t have these opportunities. It’s easier to connect with younger people because the government promotes this. Older people, however, are no longer as prominently supported, which I find unfortunate. The political and economic relevance of people in their 40s and 50s remains to be significant. There are also many individuals from this generation, like high-ranking political representatives, who are very capable and crucial for this transformation.

I believe Saudi Arabia’s leadership recognizes the need to include this generation, though some older Saudis have expressed a cautious but clear sense of not feeling part of this process, which they find regrettable. Vision 2030 is for everyone, and it has led to the diminishing importance of many traditional institutions, particularly in the cultural sector, like regional book clubs that used to play a significant role. These have now been overshadowed by the Ministry of Culture, which is more centralized. Some people find this change sad.

Hence, it is necessary that Vision 2030 does not only address the young generations but forms a unified road map for inter-generational development. Families now discuss topics with their children that they were not accustomed to discussing with their parents previously. Older generations sometimes feel that everything they did in their lives was wrong, too conservative, or inadequate. This raises questions about how identity and the sense of being Saudi are negotiated.

Q: Saudi Arabia is a conservative society. How does this manifest today? Are we still relying on our identity as Saudis, or do we finally have something to say?

A: I have definitely noticed a growing sense of self-confidence, particularly in how Saudi Arabia wants to be perceived as an independent actor. This is especially evident in Saudi Arabia and other Gulf states, where nationalism is less tied to religion compared to the past. Vision 2030, for me, is primarily a label that provides orientation on what it means to be Saudi, not defined solely by religion but by broader aspects of Saudi identity.

This has led many young people from the West to perceive Saudi Arabia in a more favorable light. This perception aligns with the reform vision, which includes certain elements that would not exist if they weren’t driven by society. The Vision is a top-down approach but also considers what parts of society want. I am convinced that Saudi Arabia is more than just Wahhabism, oil, and the Al Saud. It’s evolving, supported by politics, and interwoven with various aspects of society.

Over the past years, trust within the population has grown, while trust from the West has declined. Saudi Arabia no longer wants to be seen merely as a place that pleases the West. Instead, it aims to act as an independent player, engaging with the US, China, and others while pursuing its own agenda. This national pride is a form of intellectual nationalism.

The desire to engage in dialogue without being lectured is significant. In conversations, I strive to convey that I am not here to lecture but to discuss what would be beneficial for both of us. I am here out of curiosity. There is a genuine interest and curiosity now, with a desire not to be patronized but to engage on equal terms.

Q: Has this message reached Germany/Europe?

A: I believe it depends on who you ask. For instance, the economic developments are well-received. Many Germans in business understand that they need to offer something distinctive compared to Chinese, American, or French competitors. They must work hard and not rely solely on the "Made in Germany" reputation.

In politics, there seems to be less reluctance in key areas like the Ministry of Economic Affairs and the Ministry of Defense. The message has reached these players, and opinions are generally open and honest. Still, there is an emphasis on energy and economic matters that can be discussed constructively with German stakeholders whereas sensitive topics still cause negative backlash in the German public.

Q: The reporting on Saudi Arabia is still very negative. Why is that?

A: There are several reasons for this. One is that it’s challenging to talk about Saudi Arabia without falling into clichés. What can be done to make the transformations in Saudi Arabia more recognized? What is still missing? Instead of focusing heavily on PR branding, the exchange between Saudi Arabia and Western countries such as Germany should more emphasize people-to-people contact. I believe that authenticity will help the most.

Q: What still needs to be done?

A: As I already said, we should focus less on national branding and more on people-to-people interactions. This will take time. Cultural exchanges, student programs, art exhibitions, and journalism are crucial. Dialogue should be more oriented towards practical projects like we do at CARPO, bringing people together from Saudi Arabia and elsewhere. Both time and patience are needed. Vision 2030 is a long-term project that will gradually create a more nuanced picture of Saudi Arabia. Long-term persistence is essential for a better image.

KPI goals often focus on bringing a certain number of artists into the country. While this is understandable, it doesn’t necessarily help in Germany to make the country more sympathetic.

At the end of the day, Saudi Arabia is often still associated with negative stereotypes, like wealthy sheikhs from the desert investing billions of dollars to bring international music or sport stars to the kingdom instead of focusing on ‘normal people’ exchanges.

Both sides, including Saudis, need to have the courage to pursue smaller projects that promote genuine understanding and exchange. These don’t have to be grand projects but should focus on authenticity and presenting a true picture of Saudi Arabia. It’s important to address common issues and create connections based on shared experiences, whether or not they come from Saudi Arabia.

Q: Is it true that Germans believe Saudis are involved in sports washing?

A: It’s a mixed picture. I have spoken with many people in the sports industry who do not view Saudi Arabia’s involvement as sports washing and are open to collaboration. In Germany, there is some hesitation, whereas in other countries like the UK and Spain, there is less fear of engagement. Sports need funding, and this is a natural part of the system. How one views this can vary.

On the other hand, there is an opportunity for society. I would prefer to connect with people from Saudi Arabia, even if only through sports.

Q: So you believe your appeal is to find common ground?

A: Absolutely. Sports offer this opportunity, whether it's watching football or playing video games. However, this doesn’t mean that criticism is excluded. Saudi Arabia won’t be able to generate only positive news through sports. Qatar had to learn this lesson, and Germany did after the Euros, just as Paris learned after the Olympics. There is self-reflection involved, and sports provide a chance to engage in constructive and respectful dialogue. But we need critical conversations as well.

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